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July 01, 2008

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Chris

"San Jose offered an unconditional invitation for the “outside” to come in without asking the 'outside' to be transformed by 'inside.' Anything inside (confessions, Scripture, Book of Order) that did not fit comfortably with the outside was asked to leave. Or as I heard someone say, 'The Bible got voted off the island.'”

Indeed. This is exactly what Bonhoeffer referred to as "cheap grace."

Toby Brown

How can an organization "look forward" when the host organization/denomination actively condones that which God's Word condemns?

Can we 'just labor on' without confronting the sinful acts of our denomination? Would that not be itself a sin?

Alan Wilkerson

Can't help but wonder what happens when GA in 2010 passes an AI making per capita mandatory simply because they know it will never pass through the presbytery.

My problem, as a pastor type person, is the whole connectional aspect of the church. If SAPH's or heretics are ordained "by the church on MY behalf" am I not responsible? Am I my sisters and/or brother's keeper within the denomination with which i choose to be associated.

It is far easier for Peachtree, Sunset, or Highland Park to become absorbed within their own world but for your smaller sister congregations that option doesn't exist.

Thanks for your thought. I am particularly glad that PGF realized the stay, fight, win is dead. It was that personal revelation which led me down the road we're on now.

Alan Wilkerson
Kenton Church Portland OR.

Shawn Coons

Why be in the denomination if you aren't going to be of it?

"In PGF we treat the PC(USA) for what it is: a relic of a Christendom that is disappearing before our very eyes."

If this is what you truly believe then why remain here. It would seem you are being unfaithful to your own calling as well as being unfaithful to the PC(USA).

I'm also curious how to reconcile the following to statements:

"What if we’re wrong? As an evangelical I sometimes wonder. How could so many good people on the other side be wrong about these things? How can I be so sure that my reading of Scripture and Spirit is correct?? And if it’s not, what then? Should that possibility stop me in my tracks? I don’t think so, but it calls for humility and civility toward those with whom we disagree, knowing that in the end God will sort it all out."

"It is at this point that today’s PC(USA) failed. San Jose offered an unconditional invitation for the “outside” to come in without asking the “outside” to be transformed by “inside.” Anything inside (confessions, Scripture, Book of Order) that did not fit comfortably with the outside was asked to leave. Or as I heard someone say, “The Bible got voted off the island.”"

I really don't hear much humility in what I've read here.


Dave Hackett

Vic, an eloquent way of expressing your thoughts. I resonate with them.

Dave Hackett
visionSynergy (Seattle, WA)

Bill Crawford

My critique of PGF and ultimate choice of NWAC was in part this: "It is nice for large churches that function pretty much as a world unto themselves to decide to ignore the denomination they are in but smaller churches have no such freedom. They are often forced to accept denominational interims and other forms of "help" that ultimately destroy their fragile fellowship".

I am afraid for my friends back in PCUSA world that it won't be long before they cannot choose to be "in but not of".

Paul

I think that PGF's vision to be a force within the PCUSA was once correct in its scope. I now believe that it needs to expand. How so?

PGF needs to consider the extension of an invitation to Presbyterians of other stripes from across the globe. It may very well be that a missionary from the Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Brazil may have something to offer communities in the USA. And looking to the latest developments of our EPC cousins, they may be more like us than they were a few years ago.

As we gain clarity about who we are and whose we are, we will relate to our fellow Presbyterians out of humility. Humility is the soil that nurtures the seed of trust and truth-based unity.

Kerri Peterson-Davis

I'm struggling to find a way to remain in conversation when I am called a heretic. I remember a wise seminary prof. reminding us when we would too easily point the "heresy finger" that most heresies were 99% true.

Why remain a part of something you believe it heretical and a relic?

Rocky

The proposed substitute language for G-60106(b) says "those who are called to ordained service in the church, by their assent to the constitutional questions for ordination and installation (W-4.4003), pledge themselves to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ the Head of the Church, striving to follow where he leads through the witness of the Scriptures, and to understand the Scriptures through the instruction of the Confessions."

How that votes the Bible off the island I'm not seeing. That language requires the ordained's obedience to Jesus. How is that heresy?

Tiger

The substitute language detaches the will of Jesus Christ from the witness of Scripture (formerly known as the Word of God). How the will of Christ can differ from what has been revealed in Holy Scripture (until quite recently the normative basis for faith and praxis), has yet to be adequately explained.

Rocky

No, the substitute language doesn't. It says that Christ leads through the witness of the Scriptures. That's a thoroughly Reformed understanding of the Word.

PJ

Keri Peterson-Davis asks exactly the right question: "Why remain a part of something you believe it heretical and a relic?" Through per capita giving at least -- and through many other avenues -- the offerings every person contributing to a Presbyterian congregation helps support the actions of the national church structure. The left understands this, which is why they work so hard to make sure the national church is faithful to the will of Jesus as they see it. The right does not, which is why the're content to let the national structure do whatever it wants as long as they have their little alcove where they can do their own thing.

But every attempt to build some kind of firewall between the 'bad' national church and the 'good' grassroots activities ultimately collapses. All the various congregatons of the Presbyterian Church constitute one church, and the actions of one council are truly the actions of all. It's rather like the guy in the movie who said, "That's my family, Kay, that's not me." It didn't work in the movie and it doesn't work in real life.

Walter

Dr. Pentz,

You are in an enviable position, inasmuch as Peachtree Presbyterian Church could, by witholding its money, bring the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta to its knees (and perhaps you all should do that). Most of us don't have that luxury. Rather, we face the very real prospect of being "Kenyonized" over time. The Presbyterian Left will not tolerate us any longer than they have to.

As to Kerri Peterson-Davis wondering how she is supposed to stay in conversation with those who accuse her of heresy. Rev. Peterson-Davis, you need not remain in conversation with us. The days of dialog are over. We are at war. Your side declared war on us and on the Word of God.

As to Rocky's comment about the substitute language we shall be doing battle over, it is a carefully written piece to appear to respect the Reformed faith, while actually denying it. For you all, the Bible is no more than a witness, a "resource" for your "faith experiences." For Reformed Christians it is the Word of God, and the "source" of our proclamation.

Tiger

I completely disagree, Rocky. Moreover, the broadest interpretation of the recent actions of the General Assembly make clear that the bible is no longer normative, especially in areas of sexual practice, for the denomination. What else could explain the removal the full quotation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 from the Heidelberg Catechism? What else could explain the dismissal of the 1978-79 AI (based on a thorough exegesis of scripture that declared homosexual practice a sin)? What else could explain the implementation of a new AI designed specifically to circumvent the discernment of the presbyteries, discernment which in the past has made it clear the the GA's actions in this area have been in error?

The answer is that the church no longer believes that scripture is normative for matters of faith and practice.

And I read this on your blog:

"And your friends posit too easily a global consensus regarding 'biblical standards for sexual practice.'"

They posit too easily, do they? Surely you are aware that the position of the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox, orthodox Anglicans (see GAFCON), protestant churches throughout Asia, Africa (especially African presbyterians), and South America is in close alignment with the orthodox evangelical members of the Presbyterian Church (USA) regarding sexual ethics?

On the contrary, it is the General Assembly that "posits to easily" by concluding that their judgments on sexual ethics can be made without any regard for the discernment of the vast majority in the global church.

I think Paul is correct. Now is the time to consider the formation of transnational presbyteries. The Presbyterian Global Fellowship seems uniquely positioned to participate in such a mission.

Kerri Peterson-Davis

@Walter

"As to Kerri Peterson-Davis wondering how she is supposed to stay in conversation with those who accuse her of heresy. Rev. Peterson-Davis, you need not remain in conversation with us. The days of dialog are over. We are at war. Your side declared war on us and on the Word of God."

Wow - how sad. Simply sad. I am at a loss for words that would build up rather than tear down.


Dave Van Arsdale

The problem with the Presbyterian Global Fellowship is that it becomes the encourager and recipient of funds from congregation. That is just another way of saying “We don’t want to be apart of this church.” I seem to remember Jesus saying, “Where your treasure is there will be your heart also.”

Scott

Wow...it amazes me that the words "war" and "your side" are being used in some of these comments. Some of these editorials are worse than the ones I read on the Presbyterian Layman's website...a website that is full of hatred and judgment.

PJ, Rocky, and Kerri make some very good points and ask some very important questions. And I think the ultimate one is, Why don't you just leave with grace? You're always welcome...but if you are going to stay, have some decency and at least try to reflect the love of God in your dialogue with others.

The leaders of the Presbyterian Global Fellowship have clearly shown us that the PGF lacks any integrity by what has been communicated in this letter.

Drew

Tiger,

Skip the homosexuality issue and look at the proposed change to the BOO. Explain how this statement:

"pledge themselves to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ the Head of the Church, striving to follow where he leads through the witness of the Scriptures, and to understand the Scriptures through the instruction of the Confessions."

Is not Reformed? What is wrong with this text in itself?

It sounds like you are trying to make a point where there actually is none. Stop reading into the motivations for the change and argue why the proposed change is in itself a poor witness to the offices of ministry in Scripture and as a standard for those who would lead the church?

Saying that "The answer is that the church no longer believes that scripture is normative for matters of faith and practice" is in clear contradiction with what the text actually says.

Jim Miller

Vic,
Well said and articulate as always. I'd really like to hear you address head on the realities of potential mandatory per capita and mandatory ordination of gays and lesbians. PGF wouldn't be able to stay in the PCUSA but not of it when those come to pass.

Neal Locke

To Dr. Pentz and the PGF,

I disagree with your position on the GA and scripture, and I'm one of those "liberal left" sorts that according to you is dragging down the denomination), but I still have a lot of respect for the PGF and your comittment to stick around to be a force for your convictions within the denomination. It's what I hope we liberals would have done had the situation been reversed. Unlike some commenters on this thread (on both sides of the divide) I understand the frustration you must feel now in the wake of GA--it's the same thing I felt in 1994 when Newt Gingrich and the Contract with America swept the nation. But I didn't move to Canada, and I think it's just as silly for my fellow liberals to call for your departure from *your* denomination (and mine, too) just because we disagree. People in our country have lived and worked alongside one another for over 200 years now in disagreement over various issues, but united by geography, shared heritage, and the hope that some day the tables might turn the other way. I hope that if they do, you will be as gracious to me as I intend to be to you.

I was impressed at the PGF conference in Houston by your organization's ability to focus the church on more important things--like mission. I hope we can get back to that quickly, because where you and I are divided today, mission is the place where we can join together again and be about Christ's business. See you on the other side,

Neal Locke

chesterwaverly

I appreciate what you folks are doing. I've been spending much time reflecting on the recent GA, and trying to decide how I should personally respond. I am a mission co-worker with the PCUSA, and I have working overseas for the last ten years, so I have been distant from the discussions. This year, thanks to the blogosphere and the 'net, I've been able to feel more connected, and I have been pretty devastated by the steps taken during the GA - and not just the issue of amending the constitution re: sexuality - but the interfaith declarations as well.

It has helped me to realize that I can't use my geographic location as an excuse for not being involved in our church's inner struggles. In fact, my position in overseas ministry I think has given me a unique voice in this conversation. I am not sure exactly what I can do to get involved, but I am praying about that as well.

I would LOVE to be able to be at Long Beach to participate in the response, but it would be cost prohibitive because of my international location. Are there any scholarship opportunities for persons who wish to attend would have to come halfway around the world?

Thanks,
chesterwaverly
(my online pseudonym)

Paul Johnston

Neal Locke suggested, "mission is the place where we can join together again and be about Christ's business." That's an easy sentiment, until one asks just *what* Christ's business is.

Who is Jesus Christ? Is Jesus the one who sets us free so we no longer have to live in sinful patterns? With regard to homosexuality, is Jesus the one who affirms the homosexual's orientation as a gift from God and part of God's rainbow of diversity? Or is Jesus the one who made us male and female and sets us free from sinful desires so we can find sexual fulfillment when a man leaves his father and mother and becomes one flesh with his wife?

With regard to interfaith conversations, is Jesus the fulfilment of all human aspirations for the divine, so that all paths ultimately end up at him? Or is Jesus one of many more or less insightful religious teachers, offering his best insights into eternal values… insights which may be helpful for some but not necessarily the final word for everyone? Or is Jesus the incarnate way, truth, and life, the one living truth who is the one standard by which all other ways are measured?

Christ's business is very different depending on how one answers these questions. And the answers to these questions are, in many ways, mutually exclusive.

Steve McVie

"You are in an enviable position, inasmuch as Peachtree Presbyterian Church could, by witholding its money, bring the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta to its knees (and perhaps you all should do that)."

Dr, Pentz,

Speaking of the Atlanta Presbytery, and standards of behavior for those ordained, how about cleaning up your own house first?

http://greenwich-gossip.blogspot.com/2008/06/tom-tewell-lands-on-his-feet.html

http://greenwich-gossip.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-tom-tewell.html

ZZMike

"I’ve called our denomination a rotary dial phone wanting to be taken seriously in a digital world."

I think it's rather like one of those helium balloons, escaped from a birthday party, floating free and drifting in the wind.

Matt Ferguson

Drew,

You simply cannot look at this text by itself but must consider its context to fully understand its meaning and purpose. What is it replacing? What is the reason for this change?

I think when you consider the actions of the GA that is seeking this change (a GA that removed a Biblically grounded AI; a GA that misused AIs when issuing a new one (AIs are to be used to clarify what is unclear and this GA is using an AI to accomplish what could not be done through the establish procedure); a GA that changed the Heidelberg Catechism to misrepresent what a scripture text clearly states)it becomes clear the text you quote has a deeper purpose behind it. One purpose is to deny the denomination/community the right to establish a biblical standard for all to uphold. Instead, the text seems to want to promote the right of individuals to set their own standard that, if allowed by a Session or Presbytery, the rest of the community must then accept since we ordained for the whole and not just a local church or particular presbytery.

If this text were something that came about on its own without any history and other context it might well be a fine Reformed statement as far as it goes. But such is not the case.

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